Curse

Aeon_Xin · Nov 13, 2005, 07:35 AM // 07:35

I edited my post, but after a certain topic gets rolling, editing is completely pointless.

Anyways, thatnks to those that answered.
One of my pet peeves is overuse of acronyms, no one here has done it yet that i've seen, but in game, wow.

Entire sentences all in acronyms, even when they're plenty of room to type it.

you henchie it to somewhere a little advanced and it's all

LFG TkE ADio ADO END WTF ADc

Line after line of things like that, makes me dizzy. I do get a kick out of it though once in a while, someone puts in

LFG TkE ADio ADO Ranger END WTF ADc

Or something like that....Like a news caster with zero accent, suddenly sounds fluent in mexican or russian for one specific word or name.....

Edit to avoid doubling

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

I was referring to the fact that the AI hasn't been changed regarding the use of their own skills. Orion still casts Firestorm and mobs still use the skills they always did, as they always did.

The movement code has however been changed to make it flee from a spell that registers as AoE damage.

Don't forget Orion has a habit of casting an AOE right at the very end of the last monsters life, before the update even, effectually wasting the spell.

Point being, Orion wasn't the brightest bulb in the box before the update anyways.

Lugosi · Nov 13, 2005, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Lugosi, no flame intended, but I think you need to go back to page 1 of this thread and start reading. You seem to have missed every single point here.

I don't think so, but you can of course tell me if I wrote something wrong In my posts. I read from the first post on through the whole thread up to this recent post now, which is what my last posting, which you don't seem to see a point in, is based on.

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draygo Korvan

I take that as, I dont want to have to concentrate at all. Because Guild Wars is really not that much harder as a result of this update.

Avid FPS player? Sorry, Half Life AI is far worse than GW AI, even if you take out consideration that half life AI can only do 1 or 2 things offensively. All AI are dumb period. It is almost impossible to code an AI to adapt to every situation possible. The reason AI will never be smart enough is because of predictability as to what the AI will do in response to something you do.

Why are you playing 2 sides of an arguement, you say somehow the game is now requireing too much concentration that you're eyes bleed and yet you go on to say that the ai is still too retarded?

1. Take it as you like, you're wrong.

2. Why yes I am. Half Life's AI did it's job. This does not. Unless you count that job as being a bitch to kill with an Area of Effect spell. Which in fact it does just fine. Which is what Anet wanted to stop monks. Shame it's buggered everyone else really. So from ANet's point of view, the AI is great. For the players who don't want enemies frantically running to and fro with no sense of purpose it's crap. Someone mentioned the game being easy and we'd hate if monsters found cover before firing back. That would be GREAT. Unfortunatley we don't have that. We have a cheap fix which some are happy with and some are not.

3. Was a mistype on my part

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

Which is what Anet wanted to stop monks. Shame it's buggered everyone else really.

Uh, I don't see how this buggers Warriors. Or Necros. Or Mesmers. Or Earth Ele's. Or Air Ele's. Or Water Ele's. Or Rangers (do traps incur this 'flee, flee' behavior? If so, then ignore the inclusion of rangers in this.) Or Healing Monks. Or Protection Monks.

So uh... it's buggered Smiters and Fire Ele's.

Smiters and Fire Ele's = everyone else? I think not, seeing as I don't have either.

Draygo Korvan · Nov 13, 2005, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

I was referring to the fact that the AI hasn't been changed regarding the use of their own skills. Orion still casts Firestorm and mobs still use the skills they always did, as they always did.

The movement code has however been changed to make it flee from a spell that registers as AoE damage.

How does the spellcasting relate to the latest update. I am sure in the future we will see better order for casting

(including durham using distortion all the time nuking his energy, and wild blow on the axe hench so he can never use his exicutioners).

From what I am seeing is the devs are taking steps to make the AI smarter, they chose to add the ability for the AI to detect aoe spells and move out of range like normal players would. I would expect in the future they will make further improvements including cast order to make the AI a formidable opponent worthy of my time. They are doing it one step at a time and for some reason they chose this as their first step.

Yamat · Nov 13, 2005, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugosi

I don't think so, but you can of course tell me if I wrote something wrong In my posts. I read from the first post on through the whole thread up to this recent post now, which is what my last posting, which you don't seem to see a point in, is based on.

Ok, I'll start with the economy. It's messed up. Big time. And the game has only been out for 6 months. Why? Because of the Invinci-monk and solo-ing. The fact that it's messed up isn't something players need to complain about. ANet watch and can see it.

Because solo-ing is so rampant, bots have hit hard. Another thing ANet is watching.

Lastly, AI. Everyone has complained about henchie AI from day 1. Many people have said the PvE game is too easy. Since I'm sure henchies and monsters are using the same AI engine/rules, an increase in the AI for one crosses over to the other. The result is that henchies finally get out of AoE, and so do the monsters. Gaile hints at other AI fixes coming, and I'm pleased to hear it. Maybe next Alesia will remember she's a healing monk.

People hate change. Always have, always will, even if ultimately they will benefit from it.

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 07:52 AM // 07:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Uh, I don't see how this buggers Warriors. Or Necros. Or Mesmers. Or Earth Ele's. Or Air Ele's. Or Water Ele's. Or Rangers (do traps incur this 'flee, flee' behavior? If so, then ignore the inclusion of rangers in this.) Or Healing Monks. Or Protection Monks.

So uh... it's buggered Smiters and Fire Ele's.

Smiters and Fire Ele's = everyone else? I think not, seeing as I don't have either.

If you're in an inexperienced team, mid-battle and someone casts firestorm to scatter a slew of Axe weilding charr everywhere, is it just the elem who dies?

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draygo Korvan

How does the spellcasting relate to the latest update.

It doesn't. That was what I was explaining to the smart arse who quoted me with 'um....arrrr...murrrrrr'

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

If you're in an inexperienced team, mid-battle and someone casts firestorm to scatter a slew of Axe weilding charr everywhere, is it just the elem who dies?

Ohh, so now the update buggers inexperienced players.

Isn't that why you're allowed to do missions an infinite amount of times, and can always retry a mission/quest if you fail? Because it's a learning experience.

That Elem who cast Firestorm will remember and think 'bah, last time they all went running, and I died.'

That's called progress.

twicky_kid · Nov 13, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Ohh, so now the update buggers inexperienced players.

Isn't that why you're allowed to do missions an infinite amount of times, and can always retry a mission/quest if you fail? Because it's a learning experience.

That Elem who cast Firestorm will remember and think 'bah, last time they all went running, and I died.'

That's called progress.

trial and error can only make you better.

nimloth32 · Nov 13, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

well, i read gaile's statement..it sounds reasonable to me..but at least it might good to put in some delay before the monster runs off when they are being nuked??? the longer the delay the better. At least this will make the players and devs happier. What is point of a good update if it makes players quitting the game?? Between realism and fun of the game, i GREATLY prefer a game to be fun. It would be bad if GW starts to lose players due to a single combat update.

For me, PvE is the part where i take a side trip after PvP session. This combat update had pissed everyone off and if no one is going to buy chapter 2, i think this game is going for a slow death.

I can see that some players can take up to the challenge but as you can see, there are more players who are pissed at the combat update than those who are happy with it. I see more ranting than good comments in most of GW forum. Plz anet for the sake of the future of GW, NO MORE NERFING!!!!!

Draygo Korvan · Nov 13, 2005, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

It doesn't. That was what I was explaining to the smart arse who quoted me with 'um....arrrr...murrrrrr'

Just took a while to get through your anger to get to your point.

Simply posting, the ai improvements did nothing to fix the following fallacies of the current AI system:

AI getting stuck on other AI, or AI blocking players into corners they cant get out.
some AI standing stupid instead of being active (like in abbadons mouth).
Hench AI running in wrong directoins grabbing more aggro
Hench AI using res sig when all monks are dead instead of using it like they should, as soon as a player drops saving monk hard reses as a last resort instead of a first resort.
Incorrect fire order and inneffective skill bars on some henchmen.
Instantanious reaction to nearly everyting, an added 'human like' delay would be nice (0.5-0.7 seconds).
Henchmen trying to cast through harsh spells like soul leech and backfire.
[fixed] henchmen standing stupid in the middle of aoes.

would be far better.

So anet has more work to do. Dont whine about current changes suggest more!

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

trial and error can only make you better.

Well said!

Aeon_Xin · Nov 13, 2005, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Memphis

If you're in an inexperienced team, mid-battle and someone casts firestorm to scatter a slew of Axe weilding charr everywhere, is it just the elem who dies?

Ok, he's saying the warrior decoy, and the monk healer, now cannot rely on the aoe killing any longer.

Took me a minute.

I am still anti patch, better things could have been done, spell tweaking and whatnot(my other topic, to which like 3 people have replied while the fires burn here)

Anyways, while I don't like the solution, I don't mind some of the possible results of better patches, finding new ways for people to form.

The tank and AOE is around in alot of games and is cookie cutter by design, once upon a time it was neat and new, and the result of good teamwork, but it's certainly not original. If knight online can do it, well, it's crap.

I see where some people are coming from. Kinda the theory that no two video games are the same, you don't make a build that's exactly like any other game, it creates competition. It's a niche market that's being explored, and GW says it's trying to get out of that cookie cutter. It sure provided the skills to do it with.

I'm not saying we should be forced to break that mold, they gave it to us, but ultimately it's their intention.

OK edit, I didn't realize my other topic was moved tothe sanitarium.. I figured this was fine because the flames about patches are here......

if you're interested, and tired of arguing
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=79661

Guardian of the Light · Nov 13, 2005, 08:03 AM // 08:03

ok I've calmed down from my last post and well I've relized why people are so mad at this update.

Farming was one of the only money makers that each profession had a version of (yes I HAVE seen one for each profession) solo farming. People are mad because something that they have depended on to get gold is now gone

.

This may set a chain reaction that may hurt the Guild Wars Community.

Loss of Farming---> Less Money for Runners and increase in difficulty to sell weapons---> Decrease in Chapter 2 Buyers due to members thinking too hard to get gold----> Decrease in Anet Funds---> Sale un-avaible to cover cost of server maintainment cost---> Servers in Guild Wars being shutdown leaving the shutdown of Guild Wars Forever

Sure step 3 and beyond may be a bit exagerated but certainly Step 2 is definitely going to happen.

Anet Plz give us back farming or give us something to get money by.

calamitykell · Nov 13, 2005, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draygo Korvan

Just took a while to get through your anger to get to your point.

Simply posting, the ai improvements did nothing to fix the following fallacies of the current AI system:

AI getting stuck on other AI, or AI blocking players into corners they cant get out.
some AI standing stupid instead of being active (like in abbadons mouth).
Hench AI running in wrong directoins grabbing more aggro
Hench AI using res sig when all monks are dead instead of using it like they should, as soon as a player drops saving monk hard reses as a last resort instead of a first resort.
Incorrect fire order and inneffective skill bars on some henchmen.
Instantanious reaction to nearly everyting, an added 'human like' delay would be nice (0.5-0.7 seconds).
Henchmen trying to cast through harsh spells like soul leech and backfire.
[fixed] henchmen standing stupid in the middle of aoes.

would be far better.

So anet has more work to do. Dont whine about current changes suggest more!

Just one thing:

This is only my opinion, but I'd rather have Stefan/Whoever use their Res Sig to res Alesia/Lina than myself. I can't heal Claude or use Prot Spirit on Orion, so res'ing them is more important than me. Especially since I don't bring res sig, heh.

Grammar · Nov 13, 2005, 08:03 AM // 08:03

"A substantial number of people have been testing these changes for several weeks. But none of us really caught the fact that some of what we were doing wasn't quite right, and that some was, in fact, quite broken. Monster run-away was a selected, intentional mechanic. However, having them run away in a Dance Macabre, "like chickens with their heads cut off," wasn't on the To Do List. We made the change purposely because the feedback we got was that monsters were too stupid -- we knew that was true. But the change options were (1) have monsters run out of the AOE and stand on the edge in order to attack again, or (2) have them run away without the turn-and-fire, making them harder to track down and kill. We are trying for greater variety of reactions and certainly believe the animations were improveable over what we had last night."

I appreciate Gaile's comments here, because it gets to the heart of what is currently wrong with the new update.

Once again folks, the problem is not that enemies avoid AOE spells, the problem is how enemies avoid AOE spells.

Instead of fleeing preemtively, why can't they avoid reactively?

Banebow · Nov 13, 2005, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Online games are bound to change as time passes. If you do not enjoy the game anymore, there is no monthly fee, so you are free to leave and return as you wish.

The effects on AoE were drastic at first, yes. However, today I have been using shatter hex and cry of frustration extensivly, with no ill effects. For now, I will take that to mean other one-shot AoE's now work fine. I also noticed that symbol of wrath was not causing immediate monster panic, nor did the monsters run like "headless chickens". They backed away for two-three seconds and came back. Sometimes they did not even move out of it.

The AI needed an update. Yes, much of the player base is more interisted in an hour a day (or less) of mindless monster smashing, and they will soon return to that. However, the argument that you "don't have time to make a new build" is foolish, you obviously had time to create the current build you are using, and if you copied it, then wait a few days for a new build to come up that you can use.

The farmers. Let me say that I had finaly decided to get fissure armor. So, I started farming griffons. This is no longer as viable a process for income, and so my obsidian armor is once again a distant goal. Am I disappointed? Of course. Am I bitter at ANet for it? That depends on their next move, which I will come to in a moment. It is a team game, and it should not be possible to take down 30+ enemies of a higher level than yourself all at once, alone.

The fire elementalists. Yes, you can no longer just nuke your way to victory, and I am sorry for that (it had zero effect on me how they chose to play) Fire is not a dead element however, because so far I have seen few problems with one-shot AoE. I guess you may have to echo fireball instead of fire storm, but that is really a small change (remember all the monks moving from prot bond to prot spirit?).

What I would dearly like to see ANet do next. (please keep in mind that this is what I wish to see, not what will happen or what may be best for the game)
Remove farming. Farming is based on time, and in a game of skill it has no place. WoW will provide you with all the farming you can possibly desire, and I would prefer if this game moved as far away from it as possible. This can be done by first removing the capability of monks to solo areas. The skills rend enchantments and lingering curse exist for a reason. Make use of them (and not with the laughably weak UW monsters) This would also increase the overall difficulty of areas, because of monsters that can remove enchantments.

(in relation to my part about bitterness towards ANet above.)
Increase the drop rate of ectoplasms and obsidian shards in underworld and fissure of woe, or remove items such as obsidian armor. Such armor is impossible to attain without extensive farming or through pure luck with a drop. Farming removed means that the only way to attain obsidian armor would be through pure luck with an item drop. Then you would have to find a player with a stockpile of gold from the "old days" and sell it to him or her. As time passes, fewer of these players will need or want any items, and so you will find obsidian armor literally beyond reach for everyone except the folks who have it already. With solo ability gone, players will either team up or not go down. Unless I am mistaken, the reduction of drops was because of the solo builds, correct? If you are removing them, then increase the drop rate back to what it was.

I am of the belief that this is a team-based game. Whether my team is myself and seven henchmen or myself and seven guild mates, the ability to solo monsters of the same level as yourself is not only detrimental to the game, it encourages farming and loot hoarding. With an increase in drop rates, but a block to farming, loot hoarders could still hoard, if they so chose, team players might actualy be able to find groups, and the game would become a much better thing than it is now.

-A. Banebow

Memphis · Nov 13, 2005, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Ohh, so now the update buggers inexperienced players.

Isn't that why you're allowed to do missions an infinite amount of times, and can always retry a mission/quest if you fail? Because it's a learning experience.

That Elem who cast Firestorm will remember and think 'bah, last time they all went running, and I died.'

That's called progress.

Hey if you enjoy playing missions over and over again because another player gets your team killed, you're a damn sight more patient than many of us are.
A great number of PUGS even as far as Thunderhead Keep still haven't gotten to grips with calling targets yet.

id0l · Nov 13, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by calamitykell

Uh, I don't see how this buggers Warriors. Or Necros. Or Mesmers. Or Earth Ele's. Or Air Ele's. Or Water Ele's. Or Rangers (do traps incur this 'flee, flee' behavior? If so, then ignore the inclusion of rangers in this.) Or Healing Monks. Or Protection Monks.

So uh... it's buggered Smiters and Fire Ele's.

Smiters and Fire Ele's = everyone else? I think not, seeing as I don't have either.

It's "buggered" mesmers (they have AoE you know), possibly necro's (Wells, other skills that target multiple enemies; although I can't confirm as I just started a necro), Rangers (Ignite Arrows, and yes traps are screwed), Water ele AoE, Earth Ele AoE, and I think Air Ele might have some AoE skills as well. Can't confirm Warrior either, as most warrior AoE are shouts, etc.; don't know if this makes enemies flee either.

It screwed up alot more than you think.